A
Andrew
訪客
雖然內容不斷地伸延,原本只是針對 Tunze 230 和 Multi 1000 , 卻因此延伸出更深廣的討論, 甚至連andrew 兄原本要和一個我們不喜歡的廠商合作又中止的事都討論, 是我未料及的,
Me too, but I figure I should at least let you guys know that you too will have the chance to use these quality products, hopefully soon.
1 . Tunze 230 有沒有新款.... 沒有人確認或有真正使用經驗, 但卻開始批評multi1000 ( 可能網路上能找到的 multi1000資料較多吧.....)
At least yuo used the tunze and I used the T1000, I think that is where everything started.
2. 看完 Wet Web Media 的長篇討論, 我發現和台灣目前配備的 Multi 1000 有非常大的不同,
The only difference is the pump. We get the Rio 2100 pump with the needle wheel impeller.
而這些國外的使用者其實並沒有非常客觀地描述到 Multi 1000 的詳細缺點,
Actually, the discussion I posted here is in the later stage. Go there and do a search on skimmer.
或運作上面有那裡要特別的缺失或品質的瑕疵, 以我非常拙劣的英文重覆看回後, 我只能說那位回答的Bob仁兄主觀上已經不喜歡 Multi,
For anyone in the hobby long enough in the US, they would know that this type of standardized skimmer could no longer fulfill our needs for saltwater hobby's constant improvement and system diversification.
加上一直在批評的地方其實是 美國賣的 Rio 馬達, 而不是multi1000這 skimmer,
Again, please do a search on skimmer on various forms or chat boards.
我想馬達問題造成的問題, 在我所認識的台灣user 並未發生 ( 雖然我自己並非user, 但我身邊朋友有好幾位 user)..... 我並不想為AB Multi 當產品代言人或辨護, 但是... 他不會是唬人的
The skimmer can be effective to a certain extent. I think my fault was using the US standard and hobby know-how to judge it.
3. 講完了 rio 馬達, 開始又有對於浮游生物的過度去除的問題, 先不管品牌之討論或比較, 單是這點我希望點出來的是, 我們大部份的嗣養者並沒有特別培養 浮游生物,
I think this is the reason why I told you not to worry about it.
就如小凡說的, 若要以一個浮游物去除來評斷 skimemr 的效率或優劣, 也許先考量一下自己是不是真的需要浮游生物或有沒有培養它, 如果考慮進來, 就不難找到適合的選擇,
Bingo, KHU, you got it.
不過, 我相信對 絕大多數的使用者來說, 去除 污物的能力才是skimmer "效率 " , 浮遊物
I believe this is true in Taiwan's current hobby standard. I hope this will change soon especially after my contributions.
只是效率下的一個 " 缺點 ". 就打個比方,沒有人會說Mercedes 不是好車, 但它唯一缺點是 " 貴 ", 但是它 " 貴不貴" 卻是因人而不同的主觀, 可能開Ferrari 的還覺得它很便宜呢...... 也就是說, 討論車 子馬力配備就是討論這 馬力配備, 不能討論到 一半又突然說 .....喔, 它好貴, 不適合我, ...... 我們那知道你自己的需求情況?
Don't really understand about this comparison, sorry.
我想討論 skimmer 也是一樣原理, 討論效率又突然說 到浮游物,
If we do stick with the original subject, then efficiency of Turbofolotor IMHO cannot be compare with Tunze's any model.
雖然讓我們考慮到另一問題, 但我特別提出, 也怕有像我這樣的生手突然被偏離主題....
KHU I think you are pretty experienced in all aspects, keep on calling yourself novice seems kind of false-hearted. I think the reason why the whole discussion got sidetracked is because people start to throw in other models for comparison. I never discussed the Euro Reef, Aerofoamer, or ETSS when I participate in the initial discussion, when that happened, I just then merely stating the facts of what I know.
所以, 我的問題還是沒有被討論, 我認為, 如果針狀葉片和 form jet (aerofoamer )在國外評比是最快速能夠去除雜質的, 我想, 它唯一缺點就是太強效力而去除了浮游物, but...... 我們大部份的飼養者並不需要考慮到浮游物, 我們都是餵人工軟體飼料為主的
Again, maybe this will change one day. The benefit of refugium will be more popular worldwide IMHO. Now let's go back to the comparison. Mmmmm, this forum suggested by Andyhu was interesting. It took four models from different companies that are well known to the industry and they are all in the same class then gave an un-bias comparison. Is it really un-bias??? I think efficiency is in the eyes of the beholder. You stated yourself, according to the needs of the hobbyists, one can choose the one he or she desires. In all the models, Euroreef has the least restriction, different water inlet position, different heading size, pump size and model displacement. The heading of the Aerofoamer is different than the ETSS. ETSS' heading when compare with the Aqua C again is very different. OK, now I understand your example. Yuor example is a poor one because you talked about the price. These models all have different prices. I will give you the exact same example. Mercedes C class, BMW 3 series and Audi A4. Mercedes C class is using its comfort and luxery brand name as its selling point. BMW 3 series is selling it unmatchable horsepower in this class, and Audi A4 is for it unparallel smooth handling. All three cars are in the same class but each has their own unique features and prices.
The same goes with the comparison of the skimmers. Each has its own unique features in what they are intended to do. The original discussion was talking about efficiency between Tunze 230 and T1000 Multi. I gave my opinion and it was not me that throw in all the other models for comparison, right???
4. 最後談到andrew 原本想和 農場的一幫人合作, 卻又中止的事,
Mmmm, I still don't fully understand the whole story and truth to the matter is, it is not my business.
我想我們不會因為誰賣產品就影響到產品的好壞,好的東西就是好, 有缺點就是有缺點, 玩家會追求自己適用的產品, 而不會因為誰賣它而不去使用它的,
That is great to know. However, the termination of our relationship is not because of the discussion on this board rather than they changed their business focus after our initial contact and agreement.
我很多產品都市和網友自己進口, 國內那些人在代理一點也不會影響到我使用的態度, 不好的廠商除了可怕的定價令人不敢接近, ( 拜託, 我們又不是買不到!! 國外生產廠商我們拿起電話也是拼命講價ㄚ!! ) , 銷售手法與售後服務都是考慮的因素, 不過那就不是本文討論的重點了, 也期待andrew 能找到好的合作伙伴推 銷代理好的產品,
Thank you, I am not looking for any partner, just looking for legitimate importers who are willing to accept the new products I represent. If you have a legal business and are interested, I can sell the products I have to you as well. I think I never leave the contact information and if it is OK with the moderator, I am going to post it here.
montepora@aol.com
You can write Chinese and I can read it, just nothing too hard, OK?? I appreciate the help from anyone who refer the importers they know to me.
我希望我自己在ph84 扮演的角色是一個吹毛求疵的批評者, 好產品的使用者, 透過公開討論和回應挑戰, 盡量還原一個產品的真相與本質
That is good to know, in that case, I am the same way. I still do not like T 1000 Multi, I think it is overpriced, falsely advertised and unable to meet the intended standard. The whole thing about the needle wheel is water chopping blade that lessen the efficiency of any pump and needs frquent replacement.
冒犯到 andrew 之處, 也請您見諒, 也請您多多到這個台灣最大的版, 與大家分享各種多元的不同觀點 , 相信這裡是良性發展商業的好地方, 就如 Ivan 兄所言, 別低沽ph84 在實際海水魚商業扮演的角色, 許多廠商都說市場太小, 他們只是不敢誠實面對自己, 不敢調整自己心態, 心中非常害怕整個商業的變化, 其實....他們天天上網, 天天在看消費者的動向
That is really good to know. You did not offend me in anyway. I am stubborn the same way as you in many respects. Throughout the years however, I learned gradually to accept different ideas and when I am wrong, I promptly admitted it. Now I am going to say something that you might find it offensive, I at least have the chance to know the manufacturers here (ETSS, Aqua C, Euroreef clone's Southbay and Aerofoamer). I saw the actual operation of all the skimmers discussed here. We have a large reef club where we have our own opinion board where on each meeting different users could share their experience and give either positive and negative feedbacks. Many of our club members are selected by the manufacturers here to test their new products and write feedbacks. I think your knowledge came basically from reading the boards overseas. I was able to talk to several of the experiences aquarists who actually tested these models and read their reviews. Stubbornness can be good in many ways but in this case, I think it otherwise.
Anyway, now I just hope the dude already selected a skimmer he desires and I hope my negotiation with the importers could generate the desirable result for me and for you guys in Taiwan. Take care.
Me too, but I figure I should at least let you guys know that you too will have the chance to use these quality products, hopefully soon.
1 . Tunze 230 有沒有新款.... 沒有人確認或有真正使用經驗, 但卻開始批評multi1000 ( 可能網路上能找到的 multi1000資料較多吧.....)
At least yuo used the tunze and I used the T1000, I think that is where everything started.
2. 看完 Wet Web Media 的長篇討論, 我發現和台灣目前配備的 Multi 1000 有非常大的不同,
The only difference is the pump. We get the Rio 2100 pump with the needle wheel impeller.
而這些國外的使用者其實並沒有非常客觀地描述到 Multi 1000 的詳細缺點,
Actually, the discussion I posted here is in the later stage. Go there and do a search on skimmer.
或運作上面有那裡要特別的缺失或品質的瑕疵, 以我非常拙劣的英文重覆看回後, 我只能說那位回答的Bob仁兄主觀上已經不喜歡 Multi,
For anyone in the hobby long enough in the US, they would know that this type of standardized skimmer could no longer fulfill our needs for saltwater hobby's constant improvement and system diversification.
加上一直在批評的地方其實是 美國賣的 Rio 馬達, 而不是multi1000這 skimmer,
Again, please do a search on skimmer on various forms or chat boards.
我想馬達問題造成的問題, 在我所認識的台灣user 並未發生 ( 雖然我自己並非user, 但我身邊朋友有好幾位 user)..... 我並不想為AB Multi 當產品代言人或辨護, 但是... 他不會是唬人的
The skimmer can be effective to a certain extent. I think my fault was using the US standard and hobby know-how to judge it.
3. 講完了 rio 馬達, 開始又有對於浮游生物的過度去除的問題, 先不管品牌之討論或比較, 單是這點我希望點出來的是, 我們大部份的嗣養者並沒有特別培養 浮游生物,
I think this is the reason why I told you not to worry about it.
就如小凡說的, 若要以一個浮游物去除來評斷 skimemr 的效率或優劣, 也許先考量一下自己是不是真的需要浮游生物或有沒有培養它, 如果考慮進來, 就不難找到適合的選擇,
Bingo, KHU, you got it.
不過, 我相信對 絕大多數的使用者來說, 去除 污物的能力才是skimmer "效率 " , 浮遊物
I believe this is true in Taiwan's current hobby standard. I hope this will change soon especially after my contributions.
只是效率下的一個 " 缺點 ". 就打個比方,沒有人會說Mercedes 不是好車, 但它唯一缺點是 " 貴 ", 但是它 " 貴不貴" 卻是因人而不同的主觀, 可能開Ferrari 的還覺得它很便宜呢...... 也就是說, 討論車 子馬力配備就是討論這 馬力配備, 不能討論到 一半又突然說 .....喔, 它好貴, 不適合我, ...... 我們那知道你自己的需求情況?
Don't really understand about this comparison, sorry.
我想討論 skimmer 也是一樣原理, 討論效率又突然說 到浮游物,
If we do stick with the original subject, then efficiency of Turbofolotor IMHO cannot be compare with Tunze's any model.
雖然讓我們考慮到另一問題, 但我特別提出, 也怕有像我這樣的生手突然被偏離主題....
KHU I think you are pretty experienced in all aspects, keep on calling yourself novice seems kind of false-hearted. I think the reason why the whole discussion got sidetracked is because people start to throw in other models for comparison. I never discussed the Euro Reef, Aerofoamer, or ETSS when I participate in the initial discussion, when that happened, I just then merely stating the facts of what I know.
所以, 我的問題還是沒有被討論, 我認為, 如果針狀葉片和 form jet (aerofoamer )在國外評比是最快速能夠去除雜質的, 我想, 它唯一缺點就是太強效力而去除了浮游物, but...... 我們大部份的飼養者並不需要考慮到浮游物, 我們都是餵人工軟體飼料為主的
Again, maybe this will change one day. The benefit of refugium will be more popular worldwide IMHO. Now let's go back to the comparison. Mmmmm, this forum suggested by Andyhu was interesting. It took four models from different companies that are well known to the industry and they are all in the same class then gave an un-bias comparison. Is it really un-bias??? I think efficiency is in the eyes of the beholder. You stated yourself, according to the needs of the hobbyists, one can choose the one he or she desires. In all the models, Euroreef has the least restriction, different water inlet position, different heading size, pump size and model displacement. The heading of the Aerofoamer is different than the ETSS. ETSS' heading when compare with the Aqua C again is very different. OK, now I understand your example. Yuor example is a poor one because you talked about the price. These models all have different prices. I will give you the exact same example. Mercedes C class, BMW 3 series and Audi A4. Mercedes C class is using its comfort and luxery brand name as its selling point. BMW 3 series is selling it unmatchable horsepower in this class, and Audi A4 is for it unparallel smooth handling. All three cars are in the same class but each has their own unique features and prices.
The same goes with the comparison of the skimmers. Each has its own unique features in what they are intended to do. The original discussion was talking about efficiency between Tunze 230 and T1000 Multi. I gave my opinion and it was not me that throw in all the other models for comparison, right???
4. 最後談到andrew 原本想和 農場的一幫人合作, 卻又中止的事,
Mmmm, I still don't fully understand the whole story and truth to the matter is, it is not my business.
我想我們不會因為誰賣產品就影響到產品的好壞,好的東西就是好, 有缺點就是有缺點, 玩家會追求自己適用的產品, 而不會因為誰賣它而不去使用它的,
That is great to know. However, the termination of our relationship is not because of the discussion on this board rather than they changed their business focus after our initial contact and agreement.
我很多產品都市和網友自己進口, 國內那些人在代理一點也不會影響到我使用的態度, 不好的廠商除了可怕的定價令人不敢接近, ( 拜託, 我們又不是買不到!! 國外生產廠商我們拿起電話也是拼命講價ㄚ!! ) , 銷售手法與售後服務都是考慮的因素, 不過那就不是本文討論的重點了, 也期待andrew 能找到好的合作伙伴推 銷代理好的產品,
Thank you, I am not looking for any partner, just looking for legitimate importers who are willing to accept the new products I represent. If you have a legal business and are interested, I can sell the products I have to you as well. I think I never leave the contact information and if it is OK with the moderator, I am going to post it here.
montepora@aol.com
You can write Chinese and I can read it, just nothing too hard, OK?? I appreciate the help from anyone who refer the importers they know to me.
我希望我自己在ph84 扮演的角色是一個吹毛求疵的批評者, 好產品的使用者, 透過公開討論和回應挑戰, 盡量還原一個產品的真相與本質
That is good to know, in that case, I am the same way. I still do not like T 1000 Multi, I think it is overpriced, falsely advertised and unable to meet the intended standard. The whole thing about the needle wheel is water chopping blade that lessen the efficiency of any pump and needs frquent replacement.
冒犯到 andrew 之處, 也請您見諒, 也請您多多到這個台灣最大的版, 與大家分享各種多元的不同觀點 , 相信這裡是良性發展商業的好地方, 就如 Ivan 兄所言, 別低沽ph84 在實際海水魚商業扮演的角色, 許多廠商都說市場太小, 他們只是不敢誠實面對自己, 不敢調整自己心態, 心中非常害怕整個商業的變化, 其實....他們天天上網, 天天在看消費者的動向
That is really good to know. You did not offend me in anyway. I am stubborn the same way as you in many respects. Throughout the years however, I learned gradually to accept different ideas and when I am wrong, I promptly admitted it. Now I am going to say something that you might find it offensive, I at least have the chance to know the manufacturers here (ETSS, Aqua C, Euroreef clone's Southbay and Aerofoamer). I saw the actual operation of all the skimmers discussed here. We have a large reef club where we have our own opinion board where on each meeting different users could share their experience and give either positive and negative feedbacks. Many of our club members are selected by the manufacturers here to test their new products and write feedbacks. I think your knowledge came basically from reading the boards overseas. I was able to talk to several of the experiences aquarists who actually tested these models and read their reviews. Stubbornness can be good in many ways but in this case, I think it otherwise.
Anyway, now I just hope the dude already selected a skimmer he desires and I hope my negotiation with the importers could generate the desirable result for me and for you guys in Taiwan. Take care.
