中譯 Andrew 的"如何判斷 skimmer 是否夠用"

其實這篇文章是可以用來參考,
COB, yes, this is for reference only.
但事實上還牽涉到很多問題,
These calculation methods are actually utilized in preventing generalization measurement used by skimmer manufacturers (for example, the skimmer is good for tank up to 100G?)
skimmer設計,
I disagree with this part. All skimmers are utilizing the same concept. Weather if the skimmer is built with venturi? Needle wheel? Downdraft? Air driven? The all use the air and water mixing concept to produce the finest air bubble to prolong the contact time in order to lift the organic waste effectively. Perhaps you should rephrase it to the size or water processing capcity of the skimmer.
調整
Yes, this is one of the most important point I tried to convey. A larger skimmer would give you the "ability" to adjust so its processing power can be tune down by regulating the water pump. And this is why I suggested one should get a bigger one rather than a smaller version.
生物的數目;大小;種類;餵食習慣,都會影響到有機物產生速度和數量,
The calculation methods are based on the loaded tank capacity of hobbyist choice. In my example, 120G, ten Acros, 10 fishes ranging from 2" to 8". I am reaching the capacity "I" feel needing more skimming in order to provide qualitative water parameter. This could very well be someone who has a smaller tank with loaded animals as well. On the other hand, could a tank be over skimmed remains a myth still today. In your example a 500L tank with one 10cm fish in my opinion does not conclude anything. Using an efficient skimmer is merely for the future benefits of your water parameter for your priceless collection.
Again, this is the reason why I brought this up. Any equipment you planning on to get should be planned carefully for the future sake. You should try to see yourself a year from now and think if the equipment acquired is suitable or not. My case is that I did not see myself with the current capacity and under estimates the ecosystem I created in my 120G. And that is why I am again purchasing something that could be prevented if I planned this carefully PRIOR.
For Arthur:
Andrew,
仔細看過, 才發現你那 ETSS 非常小 (66cm 高)
Hehehe, small but massive and powerful.
卻有 1000GPH (3785L/H) 的處理量
That is the way I like it.hey hey hey!!!

我一直以為大缸子旁一定要有一隻高高的 Skimmer 才能應付的了
Nop, the technology is getting better and better everyday. The turbofolotor "shorty" is shorter than the one I got but process 1300 gallon per hour. ETSS 800 has 2 processing towers working in conjunction. Can't wait for it to come. LOL!!!

看到這個才知道, 只要有底櫃就可以了
Isn’t this wonderful, Arthur???
98% efficiency 真是太高了
Again, this is just based on calculation. My fish could La du du and produced more waste or my tank could spawn again where the sperm and eggs produced could very well influence the functionality of this baby. 98% is the most optimal efficiency calculated based on the provided methods but as long as the efficiency is not going to fall below 90% I will consider COOL!!! LOL!!! Once again, thanx Arthur and I will let others know how my baby worked.

中譯 Andrew 的"如何判斷 skimmer 是否夠用"

I got the skimmer and will pick it up after work. My friend Mike also ordered one and boy, we can't wait to put this baby to the test. Will let you guys know in about two to three weeks.
Ever since I ordered this skimmer, I been adding excessive food and tune down the Turbo I got. Now my glass is covered with large area of the green diatom algae. Let's see what will happened when this baby is put into work.

中譯 Andrew 的"如何判斷 skimmer 是否夠用"

[這個帖子最後由COME ON BABY在 2002/01/31 10:56am 編輯]

請問一下 andrew 兄您是翻譯我和art兄的文章給外國魚友看嗎?還是對我所說的看法提出疑問呢?
小弟的英文很爛看不懂

中譯 Andrew 的"如何判斷 skimmer 是否夠用"

come on baby ,Andrew兄 是對你的看法提出說明啦
Andrew兄 也期待你的skimmer效能報告喔

中譯 Andrew 的"如何判斷 skimmer 是否夠用"

come on 兄
實在太長我沒空翻譯,不過andrew兄大部份的文章內容是針對你所提出的skimmer 設計,調整,放養度等看法提出說明, 因為你的意思是skimmer 不必一味追求超大, 且舉例 500L只養一條魚的看法, andrew 是覺得500L 只養一隻10cm 魚就等於沒養魚了, 因為大部份的tank keeper 都必須為將來越來越多的生物準備好 skimmer, 所以設缸就先將 skimmer 的 capacity 加大, 以免以後後悔
後面部份是andrew 和 art 兄在討論那隻 ETSS skimemr 有多棒啦, 看不懂算沒事就好了

中譯 Andrew 的"如何判斷 skimmer 是否夠用"

以下是摘譯 andrew 的回覆
------------------------------------------------------------------
[ 其實這篇文章是可以用來參考 ]
是的, 這篇文章僅供參考
[ 但事實上還牽涉到很多問題 ]
所提供的計算方式是用來對 skimmer 廠商所提供的數據有客觀的評估 (例如: "本產品適用於100加侖的缸" ? )
[ skimmer設計 ]
andrew 不同意 "skimmer 的設計"是因素. 所有的 skimmer 都是使用同一理論, 不論是venturi? Needle wheel? Downdraft? Air driven? 都是混合空氣與水以產生最細小的氣泡來增加接觸時間, 有效的移除有機癈物. 也許應該說是 skimmer 大小或處理量是個因素.
[ 調整 ]
是的, 這是 andrew 所要表達的重點. 一個較大的 skimmer 可讓你有調整的可能性, 你也可以限制馬達的出水量來降低其處理能力. 這也是為什麼 andrew 建議寧可買個大一點的, 也不要買小的.
[ 生物的數目;大小;種類;餵食習慣,都會影響到有機物產生速度和數量 ]
文中的計算方式是根據缸子的大小及物種的選擇. 以 andrew 的缸子為例, 450公升, 10顆珊瑚, 及10隻 5-20公分的魚. 已經到達 andrew 感覺需要更多的蛋白處理量來提供好的水質. 這也可能適用於某個滿是生物的小缸. 從另一個觀點來看, 缸子會被 over skimmed 仍是個神話. 你所提的 500L的缸有一隻10cm的魚並不能證明什麼. 選用一個有效率的 skimmer 只是為了以後有好的水質給你無價的蒐集.
再次的, 當你在計劃購置任何設備的時候, 也請考慮日後的需求. 這是 andrew 之所以提到升級 skimmer 一事的原因. 請考慮一年後, 你所購買的設備是否仍夠用. 以 andrew 的例子, 因為他未曾想到目前的狀況及低估了他在這450L的缸子裏所建立的生態系統, 而必需要再買一個 skimmer (他家中已有四個了). 其實這是可以避免的, 如果他之前有小心的計劃將來的需求.
--------------------------------------------------------
小弟盡力避免逐字翻譯, 難免有不夠貼切之處
請各位大大指正

中譯 Andrew 的"如何判斷 skimmer 是否夠用"

Skimmer是處理水質的一種器具，不必一昧追求大的處理量為基準。
應以缸子水量多寡，飼養及數量的多寡為考量衡量自己所需要選購。
重要問題是如何使過濾槽的濾材充分分解有機污染物質足以讓Skimmer發揮
淋漓盡致排除有毒物質，才是根本。

中譯 Andrew 的"如何判斷 skimmer 是否夠用"

非常同意 scammy 兄所言 "不必一昧追求大的處理量"
我也一直不想塞一個"最大號"的
可是, 什麼樣的才算是夠用呢
andrew 兄介紹的這篇文章正是我找了很久的資料
缸子的水量容易掌握
可是裏面的物種及生物量的變數就太多了
一個簡單化的公式可以做為基礎
最起碼給我一個衡量與計算的參考
當然, andrew 的最主要目的是要提醒大家
"購置設備時, 請做長遠打算"
其實 skimmer 的最大功能是做第一道過濾
甚至是在機械過濾之前就把生物排出的有機癈物濾除
以減輕生物(生化)過濾系統的負擔
這是為什麼有人認為如果有夠強大的 skimmer, 其他的都可以不需要了
甚至機械過濾還可能成為污染源 (卡在濾棉上的有機癈物.....)
當有機癈物被轉換成 NO2/NO3後
除了提高溶氧率, skimmer 已幫不了什麼忙了
這時, 活砂, 活石.....等就上場接手處理善後....
當然, 你可以加強這邊也可以看重那邊
就看你怎麼設計一個平衡的系統了
以上只是個人觀點, 請不吝指正

中譯 Andrew 的"如何判斷 skimmer 是否夠用"

我想不管是andrew 文章或是我在日本網站和雜誌上查到的資料, 都沒有人會去 "一昧追求大的處理量為基準", 文章的立論是在一個科學的論述方法下所討論各種不同的養殖所需的一個平均 skimmer 處理量以及它所帶來的好處和方便, 如果一個兩尺缸弄一隻macro 150cm 的也不會有人同意, 但我認為一般的魚友都太低估了 skimmer 的處理量的重要, 以致於設缸與增加生物的過程中會遇到許多困難, 其實也有很多的缸子沒有 skimmer 在運作也養得很好, 只是管理水質的方法和一般人不同, skimmer 的方便之處是值得肯定的, 如何去計算一個理想的出水量, 提供了網友一個客觀的參考, 而不是經驗法則上的判斷

中譯 Andrew 的"如何判斷 skimmer 是否夠用"

[這個帖子最後由COME ON BABY在 2002/01/31 05:59pm 編輯]

謝謝Andrew兄的指教也謝謝art兄的翻譯以下是根據art兄所翻譯之內容做回應
第一點,每一項的實驗,都要有其參考運算的數據,,所以很多設備在建議適用範圍,都是以水量為數據做取樣及實驗,並不把變因計算進去(但每個人的魚缸內生物的數目;大小;種類;餵食習慣,日常管理等等,都會影響到有機物產生速度和數量,所以無法取得一個平均的數據,這就是我所說的變因,我所舉例的數據是誇大其差異,水量就能代表定律??????)
第二點,每一種過濾設備的產生,都是由不斷的實驗改進,而在主流觀賞用水族箱中佔有一定的地位,然而各有利弊,成功與否在於個人對其系統設備的了解和日常管理上的知識,到達何種程度. (正確的使用過濾設備而達到該過濾設備的效率這就是調整)(每一家水族器材的製造商會去改進設計的方式來達到效率上的提昇,就如同有氣動的 Skimmer 和馬達配文適管的 Skimmer 這就是我所說的設計,如何改善而達到效率上的提昇這就是水族器材的製造商要去追求的目標)
第三點,當您要設置一個水族箱時,一定要事前做評估,從了解您所想要飼養的生物的數目;大小;種類習性做為您設置一個水族箱的依據(依生物的數目;大小,放置空間),設備(依生物需求),另外還有資金,事前的評估工作,越詳細,才能達到系統和生物間的需求平衡,對生物的了解也是重要的一環,每一種生物都有其喜好的生活環境,將一個生物放在不合適的地方,而造成死亡是必然的,生物競爭和食物鏈的關係也要注意,很多人最常發生的問題就是去水族館看到喜歡的生物就買了回家,等出現問題才來問為什麼那樣為什麼這樣的.是一個錯誤的習慣.
第四點,日後的需求問題,事前如有做好事前評估,是不會出現的,除非是評估誤差或是人為因素(如多加了生物進來,多餵了食物,日常管理,設備維護,調整等等)
第五點,第三點是由飼養的生物方面去思考您的設備,也可以由設備去評估可飼養的生物,是一反向評估(以現有設備可以飼養何種生物,用在己有設備的人)
第六點,如何調整評估誤差,生物從少(小)到多(大),並注意水質變化,這樣一來出現異常狀況的機率會大大的降低.
第七點,水族箱中的平衡是最要的,不管是系統設備和生物間,或生物和生物間的平衡,原素也是,很多事是環環相扣的,是我們所要注意的重點.
第八點,任何的過濾系統,都不能完全相同於大自然,我們只是在控制管理水質上的種種變因,將水質維持在安全的範圍內.
第九點,您所付出的,會和您得到的成正比
第十點總結===>這是一篇很有參考價值的文章,而我只是提出一些觀念上的建議和看法,謝謝各位大大很有耐心的看回這篇文章,如能得到一些觀念上的提昇,小弟則倍感榮幸,也謝謝各為大大所提供的資料和看法使我受益良多

中譯 Andrew 的"如何判斷 skimmer 是否夠用"

KHU兄用"方便"來描述 skimmer 的優點, 非常同意
大部份的生化過濾都需要等待, 讓菌量能跟上癈物量
如此一來出槌的可能性大增
如果在購置 skimmer 時有為日後增添的生物預做打算
在能力範圍內skimmer 對癈物增加的處理能力是立即的
而在缸子的日常維護上也就輕鬆的多
偶爾多餵點, 或是不小心一次引進較多的生物
只要是在 skimmer 的處理能力範圍內 (Processing Range)
都可以立即反應, 馬上解決新增的癈物量

中譯 Andrew 的"如何判斷 skimmer 是否夠用"

Scmmy stated:
Skimmer是處理水質的一種器具
I feel skimmer is a water filter. I understand that skimmer is an equipment (器具). But skimmer is actually filtering equipment that helps hobbyists’ gatekeeping the initial stage of the waste break down. To me, this is extremely important. The sand and rock is definitely the second most important filtering "media". The point is rock and sand can reach maximum threshold and collapse and re-release all the wastes back into water. The hobbyists around the North, Central America and Europe have proved this. Tanks utilizing live sand or Plenum system needs to be break down form three to four years. Bare bottom tank usually faster than the live sand ones, perhaps two years or so DEPENDING ON THE TANK"S ANIMAL LOAD.
不必一昧追求大的處理量為基準
I think this is due to translation error. I used "larger than" rather than the largest you can get. I also think in many cases in our hobby, bigger is better!!!!! Tank size, filter, etc. Using my skimmer for example, I have a turbofolotor 1000. It claims to process TANK up to 250 gallon. It uses the needle wheel Rio 2100 pump. The connector between the pump and the skimmer body is an"L" shape PVC pipe ranges 4.5" in total length. The Rio pump claims to pump 692G/H @ 0 ft. The L shape elbow causes the water resistance and so is the replaced needle wheel. I would say that the pump could generate 450G/H under this condition. My tank is 120 gallon. I have 94 gallon in tank water and 30 gallon in sump water that is 124 gallon in total tank volume. Then the skimmer can process at least 3 and 1/2 times the total water volume per hour, right?? Not to mention the adjustment needed for the air valve for the Venturi, OK?? If I would know the methods provided and know about the tank requirement, I would probably not buy the Turbo and go with something bigger. Again, the turbo stated that it is good for tank up to 250G. It is clearly understood by everyone by my calculation that in my case, turbo do suffice in my 120 ecosystem If I were keeping LPS or soft corals but not suffice for fish or SPS tank.
Actually, this thought came to me even before I started to learn about the methods. My tank is infested by green diatom algae, some red hair algae, etc. I tested the water parameter and there are high level of PO4 and NO3. Again, I have large fish load and the only way for me to keep these two in check is to target the problem at where they from, not to use chemical media to minimize the problem.
重要問題是如何使過濾槽的濾材充分分解有機污染物質足以讓Skimmer發揮
淋漓盡致排除有毒物質，才是根本。
This is contradicting or I did not fully understand what Scmmy is trying to say. He said: the most important part is to use filtering media within the filter to dismantled the organic waste so skimmer can fully extracting the harmful waste to maximized its efficiency??????
Am I right or I misunderstood this??? You rather use artificially produced media to remove the organic and inorganic waste produced in your tank, then let the skimmer do the rest??? If that is the case, then why are people using all those wonderful filtering media still crying about their nitrate level, PO4 level??? The fluctuation of the waste level actually stresses the animals more, think about it, 50ppm of nitrate gone in two days then rebound back to 30 or 40ppm?
If I can have a "larger" skimmer where the tank water can be processed to prevent the further breakdown of the organic and inorganic waste into nitrate, Phosphate, etc. Why would I want to turn to artificial media? My rock and sand then is enough after the initial breakdown by the skimmer. For example: fish waste, additive used by us breakdown by bacteria into ammonia then to nitrite and finally nitrate. If I can break down most of the waste cycle in the initial stage by an efficient skimmer, I wouldn't have excessive build up of the end product-nitrate, OK?
To Come on baby:
第三點,當您要設置一個水族箱時,一定要事前做評估,從了解您所想要飼養的生物的數目;大小;種類習性做為您設置一個水族箱的依據(依生物的數目;大小,放置空間),設備(依生物需求),另外還有資金,事前的評估工作,越詳細,才能達到系統和生物間的需求平衡,對生物的了解也是重要的一環,每一種生物都有其喜好的生活環境,將一個生物放在不合適的地方,而造成死亡是必然的,生物競爭和食物鏈的關係也要注意,很多人最常發生的問題就是去水族館看到喜歡的生物就買了回家,等出現問題才來問為什麼那樣為什麼這樣的.是一個錯誤的習慣.
This is beautiful. COB, I have tried to tell this to others for a long time. It really stresses me when people on the board ask about a how to take care certain fish or coral they have purchased. I think this should be done prior to purchasing??? Good thought!!
To Arthur:
如果在購置 skimmer 時有為日後增添的生物預做打算
在能力範圍內skimmer 對癈物增加的處理能力是立即的
而在缸子的日常維護上也就輕鬆的多
偶爾多餵點, 或是不小心一次引進較多的生物
只要是在 skimmer 的處理能力範圍內 (Processing Range)
都可以立即反應, 馬上解決新增的癈物量
BINGO, You go man!!!!!!!