to andrew兄:請問你提起的t1000所遇到的問題,像是pump的用法,針狀葉片的更換,是舊款的那型classic1000嗎?
no, it is the multi- T1000
不過如果說針狀葉片的skimmer只是唬人的,應該不會
Please read the thread I supplied- in Web wet media. They are using the Ehime 1060 as well as they are suggesting the user to put the original impeller back to the pump. You figure this out then.
euroreef的skimmer效果比ETSS還好耶,
Effective in what way??
I used the ETSS 800 for powerful air exchange for my large fish load, I utilize the downdraft system to enable my cultured phytoplankton in my refigium, at least large part of it to have safe passage to my display tank so my corals and fish could benefit from them. Euroreef in my system would take out all my cultured phytoplankton then I would loose the whole purpose of setting up this refugium, right??
而且euroreef的氣管是接在馬達進水口處
This is where the pre-mixture came in and prolong the contact time within the skimmer body. The actual design of this impeller is able to produce finest bubble, but do see the difference of the impleeler between Euroreef and T1000. In actuality, when you place the old impeller back to the Euroreef, the result is even better foaming and less harm done to the phytoplankton, again, you figure this out.
我可能覺得只有用氣泡木的,才是最不會有影響的吧
no, it will do more damage in the initial usage of the wooden air stone. Because at the initial usage, wooden air stone is also able to produce fine bubble. Most of the air driven skimmers are design with less water flow out of the skimmer so the contact time is actually longer. WHen the air stone is corrupted by the saltwater, then the bubble starts to get bigger.
比看新款230和multi1000配1060的效果差多少,
Ivan, I was not comparing my ETSS 800 with the T1000. I was also taking into consideration of the overall issues originally posted. IMHO, I will use Tunze 230 without looking back.
ps:如果那台tunze230是新款的,我就會推這一台
Bingo!
Take care, later.

To needle wheel or not to needle wheel? that is the question. LOL!
Sentences in quotes are the reply by the moderator Bob, an experiences aquarist in the US.
This is the actual quotes from Web Wet Media:
Hi Bob,
Your website has been wonder and really helps. I purchased a Turboflotor
1000 protein skimmer about 2 months ago for my 180 gallon reef tank.
Recently, I noticed some problem with the come along needle-wheel pump. I read that you have been recommending Eheim 1060 as a replacement.
<Yes, or at least pull off the needle wheel impeller and put a "regular" paddle type on its place>
My question: Does the Eheim pump require a needle wheel and if so can I change it?
<No and yes if you wanted, but I wouldn't>
Second, the Eheim pump does not seem to have an air inlet to allow
mixing of air with water. How do I resolve this? Would appreciate your
advise. Regards, David Chow
FAQs about Turboflotor Skimmers
Related FAQs: Best Skimmer FAQs, Skimmers 1, Best Skimmer Selection FAQs, Skimmer Selection, Skimmer Selection 2, Skimmer Selection 3, Skimmer Selection 4, Skimmer Selection 5, Skimmer Selection 6, DIY Skimmers, Hang-On Models, Best Skimmer Op./Maint. FAQs, Skimmer Maintenance, Skimmer Operation/Maintenance 2, Algae Control
Related Articles: Marine Filtration, Mechanical, Physical & Chemical, and FAQs


Turboflotor setup
Hi Bob,
It's me again. I was reading through the skimmer faqs again and noticed a
lot of people were still having trouble with the Turboflotor setup. I just
wanted to throw in my 2 centavos worth and show how I setup the skimmer running only one pump. Most people either run 2 pumps OR one pump and water getting fed to the skimmer through an overflow. I thought both of these methods were inconvenient so I ran only one pump, but could never get the water to rise more than 1/2 way up the skimmer column, no matter how much I adjusted the two valves. The solution was simple, just remove the pipe used to connect to the overflow hose and plug up the hole at the bottom of the skimmer column that goes from inside the skimmer to the pipe you just removed. I did that and my skimmer has been working great using only one
Rio 2100. Hope this helps. We can hop on the forum if I wasn't clear
enough. Hope you have a good day.
<Ah, another lesson (for me) in personal "arrogance"... I would have sworn most everyone would have known of this modification... Thank you. Bob Fenner>
Turboflotor Multi
Hi Bob,
You've probably noticed this skimmer cropping up with my same query.
I have had this skimmer working on my tank (connected) for the past 3 weeks. Initially, it skimmed small amounts of concentrated waste (never a full cup) then stopped. I had an outbreak of fish disease and stupidly left the skimmer running during treatment. During this time it skimmed most of the medication out. Once the medication was gone it stopped.
<Yes... this happens often>
The skimmer has now been switched off for 8 days. Now that treatment of the fish is completed, I switched it on today and no foam is being produced even though after 8 days with 15 fish + two hermits in a 86 Gallon tank there must be dissolved waste as well as residue medications. Even more puzzling is the fact that I have no active carbon so the medication must still be in the water !!!
<There's more to the polarized organic accumulation of skimming than "meets the eye">
Can you please advise on what I should do.
<Mmm, nothing... other than leave the skimmer on at this point. You'll see some skimmate soon>
The skimmer comes with a venturi pump that must be immersed in the show tank the skimmer hangs onto. All this is set-up as stated in the manual.
I have the output flow valves adjusted to maximum output. So, there is a
good water flow out of the skimmer, and a dry foam it could produce it.
Lastly, the reaction tube is a nice milky colour of many bubbles.
This has been checked on my stores tank and it does not produce foam where as the Berlin Classic on there tank did.
<Hmm, this part is unusual>
Can you suggest whether its work adding an air pump to the venturi air
intake air line ? Is enough air getting to the pump ?
<Likely there is enough air... I would not add an air pump myself>
I can safely say that these skimmers are far from exact science they are so
dependant on so many environmental conditions. Your help please.
<I agree re the inexactness>
Should you be unaware of the answer (doubtful I know) can you point me to the right place.
Thanks, Kevin

RE: Turboflotor Multi
Thanx for your prompt answer Bob.
I was very tempted to just leave it alone, but after losing 3 fish during
the time it was off (Flame Angel, Powder Blue and Red Hawk), I almost
convinced myself that the pollutants in the tank killed them. Especially as
whilst the water was "reef clear" all tank mates were visually happy and
eating.
With the skimmer not working I was sure this was the problem, poor water
quality = Stress and all that !!!
How long shall I leave it running before considering further action. Note:
it is only three weeks old !!
<At least another two weeks... four would be better. Wait till you see some real (macro) algal growth.>
Regards
Kevin
<Be chatting, Bob Fenner>
TurboFloater 1000 Multi
Bob,
You have been very helpful in the past so perhaps you can help here. I was reading on Reefs.org that a lot of folks that have the TurboFloater 1000 were adding an airpump to increase the efficiency of the skimmer. In fact most people stated that they were not happy with the product untill they added the pump. So, I went out and purchaed an Tetratec 96 pump and hooked it into the input of the muffler for the Turbofloater. Needless to say that just stopped the pump cold. I tried to decrease the volume of air, and anything more than just a trickle stops the pump. Any ideas on increasing the amount of injected air without stopping the pump on the multi.
<Mmm, I would check with the people who chatted this modification up on Reefs.org. The times, places I've used Aqua-Medic's skimmers I have not injected more air... Bob Fenner>
Thanks
Protein Skimmer
Hi Bob,
Your website has been wonder and really helps. I purchased a Turboflotor
1000 protein skimmer about 2 months ago for my 180 gallon reef tank.
Recently, I noticed some problem with the come along needle-wheel pump. I read that you have been recommending Eheim 1060 as a replacement.
<Yes, or at least pull off the needle wheel impeller and put a "regular" paddle type on its place>
My question: Does the Eheim pump require a needle wheel and if so can I change it?
<No and yes if you wanted, but I wouldn't>
Second, the Eheim pump does not seem to have an air inlet to allow
mixing of air with water. How do I resolve this? Would appreciate your
advise. Regards, David Chow
<I rig a "tee" and a valve on the submersed part of the intake line beyond it, and adjust the plastic valve to mix the amount of air/water being pulled into the pump. Bob Fenner>
RE: Turboflotor Needle Wheel Impellers
Thanks Bob,
I am grateful for your advice - and so is my Tang, he seems to be recovering. I need to get a good "Picture Book" of Marine aquarium fish so
I don't misdiagnose. Any suggestions or is that your next book?
<A good suggestion for someone (I'd like to help)
Still struggling to get my turbofloater to work correctly. I went out and
bought a Rio 2500 pump and still seemed to be underpowered until I simply
used the paddle wheel that came with the 2500 in the 2100 (2500 was too much with the paddle wheel) instead of the Turbofloater's needle wheel device.
<Thanks for this input>
I screwed this up though when I put conditioner in the water for the remaining livestock after I took the Tang out. More frustrating than Golf! I pulled the dam thing out and put my CPR in the sump. I'm going to do a fairly sizable water change and give it another try this weekend.
<Ah, good>
Any chance your going to be diving in Maui over Christmas. Kara and I are
taking Kayleigh for her first ever visit to Hawaii from the 18th-1st.-Dave
<No... elsewhere, putting in flooring with Uncle Frank in NJ. Bob Fenner>
Hey Bob, Skimmer questions
Bob,
Having trouble finding a skimmer. My cabinet is not huge (21'inch clearance) and I have a 225 gallon tank. Aqua makes a skimmer that is 20 inches high but is only rated for a 180 gallon tank.
1) Do you know of any 225 gallon skimmers that fit und 21 inches?
2) What is the impact if I use the 180 gallon one?
3) Can I use two smaller ones to make up for it?
"Thanks, Derek
<I think the Turboflotor line might be a better choice, and that it's just under the size allowable... and the 180 you have id'ed will likely otherwise be fine... and yes to (but I wouldn't in your case) using two smaller units... The one rated for 180 is likely fine... once the live rock et al. settles in... I would spend my time, money, efforts elsewhere other than sizing up a/the skimmer.
Bob Fenner>

There are more quotes in this section as well as other well-known reef discussion boards. Do a search since many of you have the expertise in our neck of the woods. Again, let the dude decides what kind of skimmer he wants and I feel I have done enough here, take care guys.

Just read this from KHU and I swear this will be the last post on this issue:
再說到 needle wheel skimmer , 在我PO過另一帖的評比中, Euroreef 的效率比起同類款處理水量的的ETSS 更佳,
It depends on what you are suing the skimmer for.
更為省電,
Dude, no offense, if I am concerning about energy efficiency, I will have guppy instead of SPS corals.
我同意小凡的看法, 我並不認為needle wheel skimmer 是唬人的,
I posted it already.
決定skimmer 的效果在於泡沫細密與反應時間長, 如果說流量是最為重要, 我並不認同,
I never said that dude.
我傾向認為, 在氣泡細密度已經到達一個基本程度後, 流量更高才是更佳, 否則, 若流量很大, 但氣泡又大又少, 乾有大流量有何用?
That is a good point. in the downdraft system, this has changed with the utilization of smaller bio balls.
在新一代的 Aerofoamer ( or spray jet, foam jet) , needle wheel skimmer, downdraft skimmer, 都在氣泡上面下了很大的功夫改進,
Not sure if that is true. Aerofoamer has good bubble size in its initial product introduction. Aqua- C got an extra fitting for the Calcium reactor. Etss came out with a smaller model that would utilize the strong flow, decrease contact time. That is all.
在這些檔次的 skimmer 間, 再推舉出最高流量的 ( 記得, 通常也是最耗電與使用最大pump的 , 選擇見人見智...) , 比較才有意義, 否則, 推不出細密的氣泡, 豈不好像一味追求流量, 效果大減!!
在目前, 真正做出 needle wheel 的廠商據我所知只有 AB 和 Marine Techincal Concept 公司做的 EuroReef, 其它 copy 版本針狀葉片都不夠細, 都變成 paddle wheel , 片狀的葉片
請參考 http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1998/nov/product/default.asp
Yes, I read that, it is posted in 1998. Euro Reef was THE SKIMMER of the Year. But, Ummm... it is 2002. People have still strongly suggesting the Euro-Reef, byt they also know may be it is time to put the original impeller back?? Yuo figure this out then. Read the post I linked to reef central. at least they are posted in 2002. Could things be differently in 2003, 2004, and 2005??? Amybe. Take care guys. I am off now.

先謝謝andrew不厭其煩得解答,但小弟有一些問題起代為解惑
不過如果說針狀葉片的skimmer只是唬人的,應該不會
Please read the thread I supplied- in Web wet media. They are using the Ehime 1060 as well as they are suggesting the user to put the original impeller back to the pump. You figure this out then.
可是如果不用針狀葉片,如此一來雖然流量增加,但氣泡的大小也會增大,效果會比較好嗎?那 euroreef為何不用普通的葉片呢?
euroreef的skimmer效果比ETSS還好耶,
Effective in what way??
I used the ETSS 800 for powerful air exchange for my large fish load, I utilize the downdraft system to enable my cultured phytoplankton in my refigium, at least large part of it to have safe passage to my display tank so my corals and fish could benefit from them. Euroreef in my system would take out all my cultured phytoplankton then I would loose the whole purpose of setting up this refugium, right??
小弟只是淺見認為能在最短時間把DOC打出的skimmer效率最好,原來還要考慮浮游生物,andrew兄這樣講讓我對etss的評價又上升了,因為香港的朋友比較過ETSS和Aeroformer,就是因為嫌etss氣泡較大才用aeroformer的
我可能覺得只有用氣泡木的,才是最不會有影響的吧
no, it will do more damage in the initial usage of the wooden air stone. Because at the initial usage, wooden air stone is also able to produce fine bubble. Most of the air driven skimmers are design with less water flow out of the skimmer so the contact time is actually longer. WHen the air stone is corrupted by the saltwater, then the bubble starts to get bigger.
請問一下,是氣泡越細對浮游生物的傷害越大嗎?那skimmer的氣泡要多大才剛剛好呢?
謝謝,麻煩你了,問到這裡突然想到以前有看過一篇有關skimmer效率的文章,等哪天有空再去review吧,先偷懶一下,直接請andrew 解答

雖然andrew 已經說不想再回應, 但討論skimmer 真的是很過癮的, 我想說的是, 並沒有完美的 skimmer, 我心目中理想的 skimmer, 也不斷地變化, 但藉由討論,能發掘一些前人已經知道的錯誤, 而並非吹毛求佌地追求真理或在原理上打轉, 目前那 些高檔的 skimmer , 都還是個人遙不可及的夢想吧
不過, 關於浮游生物, 真是不懂為何 needle wheel skimmer 會因為氣泡細而有傷害? 印象中不是越細越好嗎? 那麼 ETSS 是氣泡不夠細所以沒有傷害了? 那不是代表了, ETSS 雖然對浮游生物好, 卻要使用 一個強力外置馬達, 除蛋白質效率不就大打折扣, 如果這樣, aerofoamer 是不是也會有傷害呢? 對plankton 的傷害和效率間, 要如何選擇?
再者, 如果浮游生物對我們的缸子那麼重要,那我們何不乾脆用一隻小小的 skimmer 就好了, 為何又要用到 ETSS 這種大傢伙? 也就是.... ETSS 是否大卻沒有效率呢? 這一切都令人不解ㄚ

You guys really wanted me to go on the diet?? I am using my lunch break to answer all your questions, LOL! Ummm... OK, this will be the last post and I'll even tell you some secrets, too.
Ivan said:
可是如果不用針狀葉片,如此一來雖然流量增加,但氣泡的大小也會增大,效果會比較好嗎?
Umm, the flow rate did increase, but the length of the skimmer body and its output rate are the same. So that means the effectiveness of the skimmer is not an issue.
那 euroreef為何不用普通的葉片呢?
Marketing. They have been selling needle wheel for so long and they can't just go back and change it, right??
小弟只是淺見認為能在最短時間把DOC打出的skimmer效率最好,原來還要考慮浮游生物,andrew兄這樣講讓我對etss的評價又上升了,因為香港的朋友比較過ETSS和Aeroform er,就是因為嫌etss氣泡較大才用aeroform er的
The bubble size is only bigger to an extent, not huge bubble but bubble size that are still tiny enough to raise the organic waste in our water column.
我可能覺得只有用氣泡木的,才是最不會有影響的吧
hahah, maybe after a month or so.
請問一下,是氣泡越細對浮游生物的傷害越大嗎?那skimmer的氣泡要多大才剛剛好呢?
Ivan, do you have a refugium??? I have a 33-gallon refugium with micro algae, cleaner shrimp, some small fish, crabs, starfish, and snails. I use micro media to set up my refigium bottom with rubble live rock. The whole idea of this set up is to culture some lives in my sump so excessive nutrients could be taking out by the micro algae. The other lives in this refugium, they will spawn from time to time. Their eggs are small enough to be fed to the corals and a bit too large to be taking out by my ETSS. If you do not have the refugium, then I think this does not apply to you. Most of the skimmers do produce enough fine bubble to extract the waste we want. The point here is what everyone firmly believes- Needle wheel actual works or not. I think I gave you enough answers for that. The whole argument derives from some of you who believe my theory is wrong and use needle wheel as the mean for this argument.
KHU wrote:
不過, 關於浮游生物, 真是不懂為何 needle wheel skimmer 會因為氣泡細而有傷害?
The pre-mixture column shoots the tiny fine bubbles to the very end of the skimmer and elevates the phytoplankton to the rising chamber. Remember, in the Euroreef, there are no separate compartments for the phytoplankton to have the chance to escape. It is just one oval shape body with the water shooting through the water inlet and then goes straight up to the neck. The continuous rise of fine bubbles push the phytoplankton out of the water column and trap them in the foam and the foam later been pushed out of the neck. The ETSS and Aqua-C have a separate chamber we called the reaction box. In these boxes, there are a separate divider that allows the strong flow to separate the water column and the foam. Phytoplanktons that are large enough could escape from the force of the water mixture with air- Foaming.
那不是代表了, ETSS 雖然對浮游生物好, 卻要使用 一個強力外置馬達, 除蛋白質效率不就大打折扣,
No, the organic waste's molecules are still small enough to be trapped in the mixture and rising of the foam. The large amount of air mix with the water creates a high dissolved oxygen environment that could benefit out reef animals. Its large processing power could have more turn over rates so the cleaning process works continuously
如果這樣, aerofoamer 是不是也會有傷害呢? 對plankton 的傷害和效率間, 要如何選擇?
KHU, do you have a refugium? If not, then why worry??
再者, 如果浮游生物對我們的缸子那麼重要,那我們何不乾脆用一隻小小的 skimmer 就好了,
Then you would not have enough processing power to extract the waste.
為何又要用到 ETSS 這種大傢伙? 也就是.... ETSS 是否大卻沒有效率呢?
hey, that is your assumption. I never said that. ETSS utilize the force of the nature- Wave as the original concept. A powerful water pump pumps though its modified heading shoots the water straight down (gravity) with mixture of large amount of air, the water then goes through many bioballs the chops and cuts the water into various direction in the tower. The result is a storm type of reaction occurs in the reaction box. Through the divider, the water and foam columns separate themselves. The foam efficiency might not be as dry as the Euroreef but it does do the job- extracting the undesirable waste we want to extract. OK??
這一切都令人不解ㄚ
Welcome to the club, no one has answers for everything. I was merely trying to tell you guys about the needle wheel, you guys brought up all the other models for comparison. You asked them, I try to do the best I can to answer them, cool??
Now, here are some secrets I am going to tell you guys. I think the revelation of this would kind of change my role on this board. The reason why I decided to do this is still unknown to myself but I figure, may be I can use all your supports as well.
While back I was going to work with someone you all probably know and some of you dislike him, his partners and his company. The whole idea is to bring in quality products for the saltwater hobbyists in Taiwan. These products include ESV, Aqua-C, ETSS, Euroreef clone, coral dips, Sea- Swirl, aragonite substrate, Life Reef Calcium Reactor and other goodies. Well, I was very sincere about this and have took my time and energy negotiating with these manufacturers here and have gotten them granting me the rights to export to Asia.
However, this guy's company changed his business focus and decided not to do this. That is cool with me and I respect his decision. Anyhow, with the help of another person, I got the chance to negotiate with some of the legitimate importers in Taiwan. I am in the process of contacting them and hopefully, they are willing to buy these products.
The average responses I got is that the market is too small. Some of them are not willing to understand the products I have. But there a few importers currently are willing to see what I have to offer. Since a lot of you do have the understanding of these products, you could probably offer me some assistance by letting me know if you are willing to see these products appear in the Taiwan market?? If you are willing, you could either by asking the importers you know to contact me or you could contact the importers I am in contact with and tell them you are eager to see these products. Currently, I am in contact with the importers in Kao Shiung and Tai Chung. One imports Red Sea (hahaha, don’t tell them I told you Red Sea sucks) and the other one imports Tetra. The prices I got are the exporters’ prices (good price). I have a reasonable mark up and hopefully; the importers will do the same.
If anyone of you knows any importers, let them know about me or private email me their contact information. During my negotiation with them, I mentioned the pH 8.4 boards. There are mix feedbacks but overall, they feel the board is too small to represent the market. Well, I just have to wait and see then.
I have a regular job, I do not need to rely on this to make a living. I like the hobby and that is why I am doing this. Could this be turn to a full time job?? Maybe. But for now, I am doing this for just the sake of it. Please don’t email me for any individual order, I cannot do that. The guy I was going to work with asked the same thing before and I turn him down because in order for me to make my price competitive, I have to ship them out in bulk. The volume could only be taking by importers, not individual hobbyists.
In the US, we consider brands as a valuable commodity. The manufacturers here trust me on that and that is what I am going to do. I think overall if this do happen, you will at least know that I know your needs and the products I import will be descent. Well, if you want to flam me, then go ahead. If you want to support me, then I would like to say thank you first. Oh, yeah, if this do happen, pH 8.4 will get my advertisement for sure, LOL! Take care and I hope I have been helpful.

內容好精彩
不過可惜外文的版面好多
看的好吃力
又很多不懂
但還是感謝各位大大的分享

首先,我想先感謝andrew兄跟我們分享國外使用skimmer的情況,他也讓我們對skimmer更加地了解,我試著整理幾個重點給大家,不過可能表達不很清楚,所以有興趣的網友還是自己看文章好了,
1.tunze230,AB multi? 哪個好呢?
根據andrew兄的經驗,他認為針狀葉片是市場噱頭,效果並不會比一般葉片好,國外有些使用者也覺得如此,他們用的是redsea的turboflotor,每用一段時間葉片就會壞,很不穩,而multi1000,國外似乎是和馬達分開賣的,有人建議把針狀葉片換成普通葉片效果會更好(有multi1000的趕快試試看喔!)不過國內的multi和eheim1060是一組的和針狀葉片,目前尚未有折損葉片的情況,再觀察好了,而tunze的確是老廠商了,但國外tunze的確在產品上有改良,而消失一陣子的tunze似乎又回到市場了,而新款的230,我相信應該有不錯的表現,不過國內目前應該買不到,所以網友問的這台應該是舊型的,所以效果會差很多,所以說tunze新款skimmer可能會勝過multi1000,不過舊款的230就完全比不上multi1000了,所以自己再想想看吧
2.談到針狀葉片,andrew兄認為是噱頭,但小弟沒用過,所以不了解,但從其它的資料得知,euroreef的針狀skimmer在以短時間把廢物排出的效率中排行第二來說,我是覺得針狀葉片有它一定的效果,並非單純市場噱頭,如果說用了普通葉片效果會更好,大家就不會想用aeroformer或etss了
3.談到skimmer的效率,可能每一個人的定義不一樣,所以效率要針對每一個人的需求來說,以fo缸來說,要能迅速排出大量廢物,就要考慮能迅速排除廢物的aeroformer或euroreef,但如果要考慮到能讓浮游生物存活下來,以目前針狀葉片skimmer的設計可能無法達成,因為它會產生一向上旋的水流,不斷的讓氣泡堆積在高處讓這些浮游生物無法逃出,而etss aeroformer或aquac因為有一個反應室,就是下面方型那個,會是水流分向兩邊,一邊往上是水加泡,一邊往下可讓浮游物有逃脫的機會,所以這就看個人的需要啦,小弟目前還未在培養浮游物,是添加人工的軟體飼料,所以我選擇skimmer就只單單考慮排出廢物的速度就可了,大家如想試試,在http://www.hksaltfish.com/有香港網友培養浮游微生物的精采分享
4.etss,euroreef,aeroformer,aquac,四款skimmer為skimmer中的top!每一種效率都是非常的好,所以大家可依自己的需要來選舉,之前也舉辦過1408和針狀葉片的團購,1408skimmer和針狀葉片skimmer的diy也出來了,台灣的ETSS也在高雄出現了蹤跡,希望也有人能試試ETSS的DIY,不過先給個建議是,skimmer的大小規格,長度,生化球的種類和顆數,請模仿廠商,因為這台etss是看似簡單但要做得好最難的一台skimmer,不過它是十分適合小缸到大缸的skimmer,範圍很大,當我看到ph8.4慢慢得進步,蠻感動的,想到一年前提到etss和aeroformer時的情況,和現在熱烈討論相比,以前國外討論區>香港討論區>台灣討論區,現在台灣的討論區雖然還不成熟,但跟國外和香港的差距縮短了很多,感謝各位大大的付出和研究,讓養魚的網友比以往幸福多了
5.to andrew兄,也十分謝謝你的幫忙,提供給我們這麼多國外的資訊,讓我們的水準不斷提昇,也謝謝你費心地想把國外的產品想介紹給台灣的魚友們,可是可能是你的路線或合作伙伴的關係,讓我們看到這些產品的價格實在是無法接受,因為這些價格比起台灣市面上能買到的更貴,且一些國外好用的產品,也比我們直接跟國外郵購來得貴很多,你說得也很對,台灣的市場的確太小了,也許郵購是試合我們的方法,不過如果國內有廠商說我們這個板反應在市場上的需求太小了,這就是廠商的無知了,就像是很久前曾有的Maxxx skimmer的團購,因為這個板,3 個月賣的skimmer比平常十年賣的還多(小道消息,有待確認)你能說,這板的討論不能反應在市場上嗎?如果不行?為何台灣市場目前的sps被炒作得如此兇呢?所以希望andrew兄能思考這個問題,我們網友當然也希望能有好東西能用,也期待你的幫忙,但可恨的是你的好意可能會因為商人不合理的剝削讓我們實在無法接受,再一次感謝你長久以來的幫忙,謝謝

to andrew兄,也十分謝謝你的幫忙,提供給我們這麼多國外的資訊,讓我們的水準不斷提昇,也謝謝你費心地想把國外的產品想介紹給台灣的魚友們,可是可能是你的路線或合作伙伴的關係,讓我們看到這些產品的價格實在是無法接受,因為這些價格比起台灣市面上能買到的更貴,
When I first saw the prices he posted, I called him and inform him to change the price or I will reconsider my options. The price I offered him was the exporter's price. I cannot disclose it here as this would not be correct especially to the importers I am dealing with. But anyway, He told me he calculated it wrong and promptly removed the price from his site at that time.
且一些國外好用的產品,也比我們直接跟國外郵購來得貴很多,
This is a point I have not clarify. Mmmm, how do I put to this. OK, currently, Taiwan hobbyists can only see the online prices offer by the online vendors in the US. You see an online price but did not know the whole deal behind this. Using all the ETSS and Euroreef skimmers for example. The mark up is low due to the fact that most of the online vendors do not have inventory of them. These skimmers are made to order and hand crafted. They are drop shipped by the US master distributor who orders them from the manufacturers. Euroreef for example, you need to wait up to three to four weeks for it to be ship out. ETSS takes about three weks. On top of the prices you saw, you did not see the shipping charge. Extra weight, out sized diamension are all the cause of high shipping. The online vendor when they could generate enough volume, they receive volume discount which means larger online vendors could offer a cheaper price then make the differences back from the shipping company. Truth to the matter is that if the prices are those offered by the online vendors, then what do you think its going to happen to the LFS in the US?? The cannot survive then. Using my baby ETSS 800 for example, the online price is $609.99 by Custom Aquatic. Shipping of this item from California to NY would be $ probably $120, weight, diamension, and etc. The LFS that carries the ETSS 800 around my place sells it for $799.99 + tax= $865??. If I want to wait for the online order to be ship to me for 2-3 weeks, then I might as well go buy it in the LFS, right???
Another funny thing is that the maunfacturers here all have a master distributor. They are the one represent them in the US market. Master distributors all have few sets of prices offer to different business entities. Online vendors been the cheapest due to the large amount of customers they reach via the internet. Then the LFS and then the workshops. Of course you can tell me this is not concern of yours as you sre getting the prices online and you are willing to pay for the shipping. Yes, that is the attitude I would have if I were you.
Ok, then use this for example, The ESV strontium additive 8 oz I sell to the importers in Taiwan would be in the USD $6 range. I drop the goods to the port for them to be ship out, they need to pay for the shipping, import process, pick it up, dorp it off to their vendors. Now that could add another few dollars. That is if they purchase enough to cut their end of the cost (bulk shipping). You can ask KHU since I know he does imports himself, for ocean freight, weight is not much of concern unless you have really excessive weight in hand. Now adding their mark up and then the mark up from your local LFS, this additive may be in the $18 USD range. The exchange rate today is $34.7993 NT to $1 USD. So you are paying $626.387 NT. I am not sure if this price is good enuogh for you guys, please let me know.
However, your favorite online place Custom Aquatic sells this additive for $8.99 USD. The shipping weight for this item is 2 lbs. Shipping via UPS for a 2 lbs package to Taiwan via worldwide express is $68.18 USD. Other shipping method would be cheaper which I do not know what you guys use. Using United STate Postal Services for example, would ship this additive for Economy shipping which take 4 to 6 weeks to Taiwan for $8.10 USD. That would be the same ($8.99+ $8.10 + maybe taxes?) as I import them per unit ($6*300%) to you after market. But I know unless speicaly request it, Custom Aquatic is shipping via UPS. I think this is also the reason why you guys cannot buy the Carib-Sea aragonite substrate which I currently represent. The weight would kill you. When I ship the sample to Taiwan, it cost me to send this 20lbs packaged aragonite Fiji Pink Live sand for $98 USD. This is why I am talking with good quality and legitimate importers and seek quality ones from you.
你說得也很對,台灣的市場的確太小了,也許郵購是試合我們的方法,
I hope not, but if that is the case, then I will also reconsider my options. As stated before, I do have a regular job and not going to depend on this for a living.
不過如果國內有廠商說我們這個板反應在市場上的需求太小了,這就是廠商的無知了,就像是很久前曾有的Maxxx skimmer的團購,因為這個板,3 個月賣的skimmer比平常十年賣的還多(小道消息,有待確認)你能說,這板的討論不能反應在市場上嗎?如果不行?為何台灣市場目前的sps被炒作得如此兇呢?所以希望andrew兄能思考這個問題,我們網友當然也希望能有好東西能用,也期待你的幫忙,但可恨的是你的好意可能會因為商人不合理的剝削讓我們實在無法接受,再一次感謝你長久以來的幫忙,謝謝
Ivan, we go way back since the Tropical Tide??? I also thank you for your input. When I was contacted by this person, we went back and forth a lot especially on the phone. Too bad thing did not work out because he never intended to be an importer. Also, at that time, I saw a lot of hasty words flying around on this board, so I did not know if my decision was correct. That is when I promptly removed myself away from this board.
I currently have product samples in Taiwan already, ESV, Mag pump, Coral dip and others. This perosn who is assisting me for samples display to the importers is a nice young man who has goals in what he is doing. I hope he will be able to assist me and get you guys these quality products into the market. I guess we just have to wait and see. OK??

相信大家都沒有時間精力去體驗這一些商品的好壞 , 而物美價廉的產品一定會受到大家的歡迎的

雖然內容不斷地伸延,原本只是針對 Tunze 230 和 Multi 1000 , 卻因此延伸出更深廣的討論, 甚至連andrew 兄原本要和一個我們不喜歡的廠商合作又中止的事都討論, 是我未料及的, 看完 小凡兄, andrew , 和我前兩天來的討論, 我想我以我的主觀觀點來整理一下雜亂的討論內容
1 . Tunze 230 有沒有新款.... 沒有人確認或有真正使用經驗, 但卻開始批評multi1000 ( 可能網路上能找到的 multi1000資料較多吧.....)
2. 看完 Wet Web Media 的長篇討論, 我發現和台灣目前配備的 Multi 1000 有非常大的不同, 而這些國外的使用者其實並沒有非常客觀地描述到 Multi 1000 的詳細缺點, 或運作上面有那裡要特別的缺失或品質的瑕疵, 以我非常拙劣的英文重覆看回後, 我只能說那位回答的Bob仁兄主觀上已經不喜歡 Multi, 加上一直在批評的地方其實是 美國賣的 rio 馬達, 而不是multi1000這 skimmer, 我想馬達問題造成的問題, 在我所認識的台灣user 並未發生 ( 雖然我自己並非user, 但我身邊朋友有好幾位 user)..... 我並不想為AB Multi 當產品代言人或辨護, 但是... 他不會是唬人的
3. 講完了 rio 馬達, 開始又有對於浮游生物的過度去除的問題, 先不管品牌之討論或比較, 單是這點我希望點出來的是, 我們大部份的嗣養者並沒有特別培養 浮游生物, 就如小凡說的, 若要以一個浮游物去除來評斷 skimemr 的效率或優劣, 也許先考量一下自己是不是真的需要浮游生物或有沒有培養它, 如果考慮進來, 就不難找到適合的選擇, 不過, 我相信對 絕大多數的使用者來說, 去除 污物的能力才是skimmer "效率 " , 浮遊物 只是效率下的一個 " 缺點 ". 就打個比方,沒有人會說Mercedes 不是好車, 但它唯一缺點是 " 貴 ", 但是它 " 貴不貴" 卻是因人而不同的主觀, 可能開Ferrari 的還覺得它很便宜呢...... 也就是說, 討論車 子馬力配備就是討論這 馬力配備, 不能討論到 一半又突然說 .....喔, 它好貴, 不適合我, ...... 我們那知道你自己的需求情況? 我想討論 skimmer 也是一樣原理, 討論效率又突然說 到浮游物, 雖然讓我們考慮到另一問題, 但我特別提出, 也怕有像我這樣的生手突然被偏離主題.... 所以, 我的問題還是沒有被討論, 我認為, 如果針狀葉片和 form jet (aerofoamer )在國外評比是最快速能夠去除雜質的, 我想, 它唯一缺點就是太強效力而去除了浮游物, but...... 我們大部份的飼養者並不需要考慮到浮游物, 我們都是餵人工軟體飼料為主的
4. 最後談到andrew 原本想和 農場的一幫人合作, 卻又中止的事, 我想我們不會因為誰賣產品就影響到產品的好壞,好的東西就是好, 有缺點就是有缺點, 玩家會追求自己適用的產品, 而不會因為誰賣它而不去使用它的, 我很多產品都市和網友自己進口, 國內那些人在代理一點也不會影響到我使用的態度, 不好的廠商除了可怕的定價令人不敢接近, ( 拜託, 我們又不是買不到!! 國外生產廠商我們拿起電話也是拼命講價ㄚ!! ) , 銷售手法與售後服務都是考慮的因素, 不過那就不是本文討論的重點了, 也期待andrew 能找到好的合作伙伴推 銷代理好的產品, 我希望我自己在ph84 扮演的角色是一個吹毛求疵的批評者, 好產品的使用者, 透過公開討論和回應挑戰, 盡量還原一個產品的真相與本質
冒犯到 andrew 之處, 也請您見諒, 也請您多多到這個台灣最大的版, 與大家分享各種多元的不同觀點 , 相信這裡是良性發展商業的好地方, 就如 ivan 兄所言, 別低沽ph84 在實際海水魚商業扮演的角色, 許多廠商都說市場太小, 他們只是不敢誠實面對自己, 不敢調整自己心態, 心中非常害怕整個商業的變化, 其實....他們天天上網, 天天在看消費者的動向